Re: [As-users] AfterStep 2.0 beta4 release
Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:35:26 +0100 (CET)

hi all!
> Well, surely anyone willing to help - can help. Form module is somewhat
>  large project within the project, as it includes its own library of=20
> widgets. In fact it was originally created to facilitate something like
>  AfterStep Desktop Environment. I think the idea was of Guylhem Aznar=20
> back in 1998. I don't really have any hopes for achieving such an=20
> ambitious goal, due to several reasons, such as lack of advertisement=20
> muscule of major corporation, the fact that AfterStep is sort of a
> black  hole as viewed by Open Source Establishement, etc, etc.

ever wonder why afterstep apears as a black hole for the open source
movement? mainly because the default look of afterstep 1.8 sucked.
when i showed friends what is possible with afterstep they where always
like wow, that's afterstep ? so having cool themes/looks by default is
crutial imho.

also in these days integration of toolkits in the
theme engine seems very important to me. for gtk you could do something
like :

if -d ~/.afterstep/desktop/themes/gtk then
gtk-themeswitch ~/.afterstep/desktop/themes/gtk
if -d ~/.afterstep/desktop/themes/gtk2 then
gtk-themeswitch ~/.afterstep/desktop/themes/gtk

or even better, use the official gtk config/theme dirs.
just adding a dependency on gtk-themeswitch for those in need for a more
integrated look of the desktop... integrating afterstep more with gtk/qt
apps would simply rock ... just try combining the gtk theme of 23_ounces
of glass with the corresponding as theme.... simply rocks.
> There are two approaches to fixing Forms module :
> 1) rewrite all the widgets in the library to make use of new=20
> libAfterStep/Image facilities (which should simplify things alot). 2)
> rewrite Form module to make use of GTK or FLTK widgets if available. 3)
> drop Form module completely.
> I personally favor first approach, as I'm greately dissatisfied with=20
> GTK, and although I like FLTK - it does not have sufficient market=20
> penetration. (Qt is completely out of the question, don't even ask
> why).

i would favor the use of gtk/glade with perl - afterstep has already
a dependency on perl. also i have made an almost complete gui for ascp
in gtk/glade , but cannot program - perhaps by using perl the effort
of programming the logic of ascp could perhaps be reduced...

anyway : sasha, you're the boss, it's up to you to decide. for me it
would be logical to use the same toolkit/programming language for
ascp _and_ form/script.

> Another use for Form module might be for long overdue ascp.
> If anyone wishes to engage into Form module fixing in ob=3Dne way or=20
> another - feel free to, I'll suply all the needed=20
> information/help/anything. The only requirement I have is the same as=20
> what women expect of a men, and what men rarely deliver - a commitment
> :)
>>>filename extentions are evil. period. for example what prevents me
>>>from  slapping .jpg on xpm file? Nothing, and I could very well do
>>>that -  leaving you very confused. On the other hand if you have alot
>>>of files  with extentions of .jpg, and you set up your config
>>>accordingly, but  then you decide to switch to PNG format - you are in
>>>deep trouble now,  as you have to change all your config files, and
>>>you have to somehow  support lots of users ot there who have .jpg
>>>files referenced from their  config.
>>>File type should only be decided from the file contents. It should
>>>never  be based on filename. Silly tradition of associating filenames
>>>with file  type comes from equally silly MS Windows, and it'd be
>>>wonderfull if it'd  stayed in there only. If you want to use more
>>>MSWindows-nesque system -  please use KDE.

wow, i had to swallow hard while reading this. this kde statement sounds
very arrogant to me. then you should not wonder that nobody uses afterste=
if you tell them to go away just because they have another opinion.
after all file extension are a questions of taste -
a simple solution would be to add a config option like
--use-extension then nobody would have to discuss that matter any more.

btw. having files with .xpm extension being png or xml is _really_ evil.

>> Don't be insulting, you know just like me that file suffixes helps a
>> lot
> Did not mean to insult, sorry about that - this issue tend to get me=20
> overexcited.
> Yes, and the reason is that I did not want to break old configuration=20
> based on XPM files, as I switched to PNG. So I had to create
> "shortcuts"  to PNG files using XML. As the result you get ugly
> situation where files  with extention of .xpm really are XML files.
> That was what convinced me  to drop extentions altogether for any new
> image file added.

the wharf (for me the most important as module) 2.0 config is not
compatible with 1.8 config so, keeping compatibility for filenames
is not really reasonable as one has to edit .afterstep/wharf anyway...

Transient doesn't work anymore. wharffittocontents which is somehow
confusing cause as 1.8 worked flawlessly even when changing sizes wildly.

using other sizes for wharf entries then
64x64 gives uggly results... i am sorry that i cannot give you my wharf2
config files to show you exactly the problems as i had a hd crash and los=
all data (didn't have the time and nerves to fiddle around recovering my
data of that hd) so here's what i still remember:
old config:

*Wharf a1 - Size 82x82
*Wharf a1 blah.xpm Folders
*Wharf spacer - Size 82x32
*Wharf spacer spacer.xpm
*Wharf a2 - Size 82x82
*Wharf a2 blah.xpm
*Wharf spacer2 - Size 82x32
*Wharf spacer2 spacer.xpm
*Wharf ~Folders
in new wharf config=20
all the same except at the end:
*Wharf spacer2 - Size 82x32
*Wharf spacer2 spacer.xpm
*Wharf ~Folder                 <- gets ignored whatever you write in ther=
*Wharf ~Folder

this was with cvs version from february. as soon as i get as2 running
i can write it down in detail...

just try to get
running correctly in as2 ... you'll see a lotta problems with afterstep2.
they are an archive of ~/GNUstep/L/A/ (already mailed you those files
sasha...) porting complex themes from 1.8 to 2.0 is not a trivial thing
at all...

as soon as i get my data back i'll contribute something more usefull.

just my two cents

niklas lunger

Life's a comedy for those who think,
a tragedy for those who feel.

Das Leben ist eine Kom=F6die, f=FCr die die denken,
eine Trag=F6die, fuer die die f=FChlen.

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